History of DMW 903C -Triumph TR4A IRS - I am the Fourth and Seventh Owner of DMW 903C
This page is all about what we know of the history of our Triumph TR4A IRS. Starting with the heritage certificate. Interestingly, when it left the factory it was destined for Swindon which is where I bought the car many years in to its life. So it looks like it was a local car. Please scroll down and watch the films of the owners telling their stories of DMW 903C. The video below is Harry Liddell, telling his story of owning DMW 903C as the first owner.
Heritage Certificate (The incorrect one - wrong engine number)
Heritage Numbers Confirmation
This number was found at the rear of the body on the inner rear wing. It appears to relate to nothing? Bit of a mystery?
The engine number on the car engine is CT 58175E and on the heritage certificate it is CT/58827-CT so it would look like the engine was replaced at some point. However, I now have the original bill of sale and the engine number matches??? The British Motor Heritage Trust said they had made a mistake when researching. If your numbers don't match on a heritage certificate it may well be worth the while contesting it.
Identification Plate
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The original identification plate. Showing the chassis number, Paint number 19 - Triumph New White, Trim number 12 - Matador Red. The car was also fitted with a black hood. The Chassis number of CTC 58063 is correct and the Heritage Certificate also includes an 'O' for Overdrive.
Body Number Matched to Heritage Certificate Body Number 58827 CT
The picture below shows DMW 903C with me - Paul Anderson and my best man - John Dillion, outside John's house at 11 Byron Road in Lydiate, Maghull, Liverpool, UK.
The glove puppet is Sooty, a present from my wife from when she worked at Hamley's in London. The puppet went everywhere with us. So we got to the church and no one was there so we thought we had time for a quick Scotch at a local pub. We had a few scotches and then drove to the church. The TR ran out of petrol on the forecourt of the church. The gods were with us and a big thanks to my friends who sorted out the car to make sure it was running for when we woke up the next morning. All fuelled up and parked in the hotel garage:-) |
Same guys, Same car, 23 years apart.John and myself at our respective weddings.
This is another picture from our wedding day. Ginny Stevens and Nadia Thompson, 2 very good friends of my wife Susannah and our TR4A.
Third Owner & Restorer Before Me |
This is Simon a policeman from Swindon. Picture shows his family. His parents owned a pub where I first saw the car. This was taken on the day we went to pick it up. more on his ownership below.
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TR In Simon's Words
Paul, I have to say the car looks wonderful and I hope she lasts another 50 years at least. (Although I don't like the wheels or whitewall tyres!) I bought the car off a gent in Highworth in Swindon by the name of John Toll, to be perfectly honest I can't really remember when but we did a deal and he had my Red TR6 and he gave me the TR4A and some cash. I noticed the original owner had a servo fitted so his wife could drive it! I started a fairly basic and budget restoration on the car with chassis welding, panel replacement etc culminating in me re spraying it in a shed in the car park of my Dad's pub "The Harrow Inn" in Wanborough. Swindon.. (Not a bad job for a first effort I thought). My father changed pubs to the “Plough Inn” Wanborough where you came to view it. You collected it from me at my home address in Staines. I had many years of pleasure from it and ran it for quite a few years eventually selling it to you. I then went on to buy a 1955 TR3 which I pulled apart and began restoring, unfortunately it's still in my garage in bits! You came to view it at my Dad's pub, then the Plough Inn Wanborough and collected it from me at my home address in Staines. Simon |
Simon's Restoration of Triumph TR4A DMW 903C
I remember that when I bought DMW 903C off Simon, it needed a new water pump and Simon elected to buy and fit it himself. Amazingly, he found the receipt for the water pump from Cox and Buckles in Richmond, which was in the early stages of being part of Moss Europe. It's dated 12/06/93. Around the time I bought the car.
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The receipt from Cox and Buckles showing the 'Repro' water pump! Above left, is an ad Simon placed to sell the car the year earlier. Neither of us can remember the actual price I paid???
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2nd and 3rd owner - John Toll
So amazingly, I managed to get in touch with John Toll - the 2nd and third owner of DMW 903C. The reason he is the second and third owner technically is because a chap called, Rob Querton bought the car off Harry Liddell. John missed out, however he needed some cash so John bought it off Rob as Rob had had trouble also getting it insured. John picked up the car and drove it around to see Harry to say he had doit in the end after all. John said the car needed some serious work doing to it. John i a life long TR fan as his father was a tool=maker for Standard Triumph in 1934. He ended being the operations director of Triumph in 1968 and oversaw the TR5, TR6 and TR7. John's father died in 1981 the year the first restoration of DMW 903C was completed.
Picture on the left shows John and Penny reunited with the DMW 903C. Interestingly, Penny like Liz, Harry's wife, used to drive the car a lot so I guess the servo Harry fitted served them both well? The pictures bottom and bottom left show John trying out the car after all of these years!! |
The John Toll Restoration
Below you can see the restoration of DMW 903C as completed by John Toll in 1981 - note the American AMCO front bar.
In John's own wordsThe video on the right shows John Toll telling us about his life with Triumph TR4A DMW 903C. I can't thank John enough for his time and trouble. Amazing the picture he gave us of DMW 903C. This will now stay with the car as a big part of its history. Thanks John! You can see the picture on John's wall in the pictures above.
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The documented restoration by John Toll - The receipts.
Thank you to Simon, the third owner of DMW 903C surprised my by sending a whole large envelope of receipts that had been handed to him when he bought the car of the second owner John. As I went through them, it was amazing to see the companies John had turned to for parts and services. Notably, John Skinner who has now supplied 2 interiors to DMW 903C, The TR Shop in Chiswick, London who have supplied many parts for my restoration and lately provided the AMCO bumper bar. Pictures below show the receipts wit a few links to the suppliers now.
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Using the car for work |
The TR4A was the first classic car I had as my company car. This picture shows the car in Leonard Street, London. It was taken from my office window looking down in to the street in the period between Christmas and New Year. I remember it well as I was the only person in the office.
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The car when I bought it |
The pictures below show the condition of the car when I bought it from Simon the third owner. As you can see, other than the panel distortions it was quite a tidy vehicle. I'd love to know where the steering wheel ended up? These pictures were taken o Southfields, London where I rented a lock-up garage for the car. I used to have to walk to the garage every morning to get the car to go to work. Prior to the TR I used to go to work on my bicycle (13 miles a day).
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Below a few pictures of the TR4A outside our old flat in London
This picture above is from Simon who was the third owner.
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4th March 2012 - A Flickr post at https://www.flickr.com/photos/gyles/6956292501/Picture Below - Found this on Flickr taken by a guy who photographs lorries from a motorway bridge. In the post on Flickr is communication from the first owner of our TR4A from 1965-1976. I have had no joy in contacting him or his son. The search continues. This picture shows myself and my son on the way home from a shopping trip in London. We were buying a light sabre at Forbidden Planet in Shaftesbury Avenue. It would have been an early birthday present as my son was born in April.
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The first owner of DMW 903C - Harry Liddell.The power of the internet. Harry Liddell got in touch via this website to say he was the first owner of DMW 903C straight off the production line. I thought he maybe over 80 but it turned out he was 92 and very well. The build quality of Triumph's were not great at the time and he had no end of issues with the car. They are all listed here in Harry's own words. The picture show Harry with his new Triumph TR4A. Harry also supplied the original purchase certificate - thank you Harry. We are hoping to meet up with Harry and reunite him with the car!
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Below you can see the original Triumph Warranty for DMW 903C - given to me by Harry Liddell.
In Harry's Words
There were a number of minor problems during my (Harry Liddell) first few years of ownership – considerably more than with the previous TR3, but fairly typical of the bad period our motor industry was going through at that time. Indeed, for starters the car left the factory with an inoperative overdrive that took the dealer a few days to fix while other problems are listed below in (more or less) chronological order:
Problems 1965-76:
Oil leak and noise from final drive unit, which took several attempts to fix – eventually sorted.
One rear tyre found to be marginally smaller in x-section than the others, with noticeable effect on handling. A letter to Sir Donald Stokes produced profuse apologies and of course a new tyre of the correct size, but one does wonder just how this sort of thing could happen? Anyway all the original Goodyear cross-plies were replaced by Michelin X ASAP, not difficult as they wore out extremely quickly.
Another wheel problem. Shortly after expiry of the warranty I noticed a peculiar softness in the left rear suspension but which in fact was down to all the spokes in that wheel being slightly loose, and a check on the other wheels showed they all had several loose spokes too. So they all in turn went off to a specialist repairer, after which there was no more trouble aside from the additional expense of having to buy a sixth wheel to cover the spare position.
Fairly early in the car’s life I was much bothered by a metallic chattering noise when accelerating, emanating apparently from the region of the gear lever; it occurred only in the lower gears and was distinctly unpleasant, though apparently without mechanical significance as performance was unaffected. Quantock Motors were eventually able to fix this, though I now forget what the cause was.
Around 1968 a failed linkage joint rendered the rear nearside damper inoperative, resulting in the car being almost undriveable until it was repaired.
Something never cured was rainwater leaks in the scuttle area; and, as the car necessarily lived outside, it was a constant chore to have to remove the ‘carpets’ and underlay to dry them out; hope you or a previous owner have been able to fix this!
Two other annoyances were the exhaust’s short life (two years max as I recall), and the ragtop’s similar short span of a year or so longer. Later on the dreaded tin worm showed itself, the boot lid especially decaying badly; can’t remember if I replaced it, if not I’m quite sure someone else has – and possibly a good deal else!
However, on the credit side the car never let me down and was unfailingly reliable aside from that damper linkage episode. Routine maintenance apart the engine remained untouched, aside from the constant struggle to keep the carbs balanced and I parted from it with sincere regret; however I had no option as both son & daughter had come of driving age, and neither a TR nor our other car (Audi 100) were suitable for the learner/just passed stages of a young driver’s life.
Problems 1965-76:
Oil leak and noise from final drive unit, which took several attempts to fix – eventually sorted.
One rear tyre found to be marginally smaller in x-section than the others, with noticeable effect on handling. A letter to Sir Donald Stokes produced profuse apologies and of course a new tyre of the correct size, but one does wonder just how this sort of thing could happen? Anyway all the original Goodyear cross-plies were replaced by Michelin X ASAP, not difficult as they wore out extremely quickly.
Another wheel problem. Shortly after expiry of the warranty I noticed a peculiar softness in the left rear suspension but which in fact was down to all the spokes in that wheel being slightly loose, and a check on the other wheels showed they all had several loose spokes too. So they all in turn went off to a specialist repairer, after which there was no more trouble aside from the additional expense of having to buy a sixth wheel to cover the spare position.
Fairly early in the car’s life I was much bothered by a metallic chattering noise when accelerating, emanating apparently from the region of the gear lever; it occurred only in the lower gears and was distinctly unpleasant, though apparently without mechanical significance as performance was unaffected. Quantock Motors were eventually able to fix this, though I now forget what the cause was.
Around 1968 a failed linkage joint rendered the rear nearside damper inoperative, resulting in the car being almost undriveable until it was repaired.
Something never cured was rainwater leaks in the scuttle area; and, as the car necessarily lived outside, it was a constant chore to have to remove the ‘carpets’ and underlay to dry them out; hope you or a previous owner have been able to fix this!
Two other annoyances were the exhaust’s short life (two years max as I recall), and the ragtop’s similar short span of a year or so longer. Later on the dreaded tin worm showed itself, the boot lid especially decaying badly; can’t remember if I replaced it, if not I’m quite sure someone else has – and possibly a good deal else!
However, on the credit side the car never let me down and was unfailingly reliable aside from that damper linkage episode. Routine maintenance apart the engine remained untouched, aside from the constant struggle to keep the carbs balanced and I parted from it with sincere regret; however I had no option as both son & daughter had come of driving age, and neither a TR nor our other car (Audi 100) were suitable for the learner/just passed stages of a young driver’s life.
Harry Recalls
Harry, the first owner of DMW 903C and I keep in touch. It is always great to hear from him. Harry reads this website and it jogs his memory on certain aspects of TR4A DMW 903C. Below you can read what Harry had to say.
Factory handbrake on TR4A was NOT the fly-off type.
Steve Long, a previous owner said, " I also got rid of it (The TR4A) because it was too hard for the wife to drive. She found the large wheels a bit too much for her as it was very heavy at low speeds. I also found her sitting in it for half an hour once as she couldn't work out how to release the ironically named 'quick release' handbrake ".
Harry noted re the above comments on the handbrake, " It seems to imply that the car was fitted with a fly-off handbrake, which was definitely not the case when I had it; was it subsequently modified by another owner? (We think the second owner John Toll did the handbrake modification) I am quite certain on this point, as I recall being disappointed on taking delivery that it had one of the normal sort, unlike my previous TR3 which did have a fly-off. On complaining I was told (can't recall by who, probably the salesman) that with previous models there had been many complaints from American customers, many of whom seemed unable to get their heads round this peculiar English version of a parking brake; and, since the US was considered Triumph's main market, the brake was altered accordingly. I can quite believe this, as I remember being surprised (and annoyed) when noticing that later versions of the Triumph 2000 for the UK market had the wipers set for left hand drive, leaving a large unwiped area for the unfortunate driver to peer through. This was presumably done on a wrong-headed idea of reducing factory costs, but I think that any manufacturer treating its home market with disdain deserved to eventually fail - as they did". He added. "Re the handbrake, I wish I had been able to do a fly-off mod as to my mind it is much preferable to the normal unit, to say nothing of latter-day abominations such as the foot-operated type or (even worse) electrical."
Harry noted re the above comments on the handbrake, " It seems to imply that the car was fitted with a fly-off handbrake, which was definitely not the case when I had it; was it subsequently modified by another owner? (We think the second owner John Toll did the handbrake modification) I am quite certain on this point, as I recall being disappointed on taking delivery that it had one of the normal sort, unlike my previous TR3 which did have a fly-off. On complaining I was told (can't recall by who, probably the salesman) that with previous models there had been many complaints from American customers, many of whom seemed unable to get their heads round this peculiar English version of a parking brake; and, since the US was considered Triumph's main market, the brake was altered accordingly. I can quite believe this, as I remember being surprised (and annoyed) when noticing that later versions of the Triumph 2000 for the UK market had the wipers set for left hand drive, leaving a large unwiped area for the unfortunate driver to peer through. This was presumably done on a wrong-headed idea of reducing factory costs, but I think that any manufacturer treating its home market with disdain deserved to eventually fail - as they did". He added. "Re the handbrake, I wish I had been able to do a fly-off mod as to my mind it is much preferable to the normal unit, to say nothing of latter-day abominations such as the foot-operated type or (even worse) electrical."
Modifications/extras fitted at various times:
Michelin X tyres all round - wood-rim steering wheel - air horns – brake servo – luggage rack – wing mirrors. Note: The brake servo was fitted to enable my wife to drive the car – even I found it a very hard push without! On the left you can see the actual servo Harry fitted. This was removed from the car by the Third owner Simon. This servo is still in one piece and is kept to one side not actually fitted to the vehicle anymore. |
Harry came across this additional picture taken near Brecon during summer 1966. "Taken en-route to a brief holiday at Tenby with our then other car (Austin Princess 1100) carrying most of our baggage on its roof".
Quantock Motors - The dealer that supplied DMW 903C
Quantock Motors in the late 1950s and below as it is today (2016) The shapes where the display windows still clearly visible.
A very early picture of Quantock Motors, Swindon.
Mismatching Engine NumbersThanks to Harry Liddell for the original dealer invoice as it confirms we have a numbers matching car.
The Heritage Certificate is out and we are trying to resolve this issue. The picture in the right shows where the confusion has arisen and we do NOT have a replacement engine. It is the original supplied with the car from new. We will be contacting the Heritage Certificate people to resolve. |
The correct Heritage Certificate with the correct matching numbers
Triumph TR4A IRS - Motor Sport, June 1976, Classified Ad, when the car was sold on to 2nd owner
Here you can see the classified ad that Harry Liddell placed back on June 1976 to sell on the TR4A. It had 82,000 miles on the clock. The extras he refers to are the brake servo and door mirrors. this was the first time the car had changed hands since new. The car was bought by John the second owner. The Third owner, Simon refers to the servo.
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Fifth Owner Steve - The guy I passed the car on to
I owned, if that's the right word from July 4th 1995 . I had it until 21st November 1997. I changed the TR4A for a Barchetta for 2 reasons. 1: I couldn't fit my golf clubs in. And 2: the Barchetta designers had designed the boot specifically to be big enough for golf clubs.
Secondly with the introduction of ridiculously high road humps in Wimbledon I had to take a 2 mile diversion to get home every time I used the car to avoid them as the TR would bottom out! Not very good. It would be ok now as the council eventually got fed up of complaints from broken exhausted drivers. And put in more user friendly traffic calming measures. I used the car mainly at weekends though to get to the golf club, with my clubs sat by my side. I didn't really have any problems with it. Apart from some idiot knifing the roof to get in when I always left the doors open anyway to stop this happening. I also got rid of it because it was too hard for the wife to drive. She found the large wheels a bit too much for her as it was very heavy at low speeds. I also found her sitting in it for half an hour once as she couldn't work out how to release the ironically named 'quick release' handbrake. Strangely enough. She has never driven the Barchetta either this time because it is left hand drive and she finds the gears difficult! I passed the car on the Nigel. |
The 6th Owner Nigel - We got the car back from him
Picture shows Nigel the 6th owner above and the car at his daughters wedding. One of the 3 weddings that that car has been used at.
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Here is the TR4A at Nigel's daughter Claire's wedding in 2001. We polished her up, attached the wedding ribbons and my daughter set off from Chingford for country hotel just north of Harlow. My daughter was in mufti but we were posing through Epping High Street as you do ( roof down - hear the sound of that engine ). When nature called, my daughter had to beg the use of a shops loo. Did not score 10/10 on the posing front
We also went to a couple of car rallies with the car. One in Southend and one in Herfordshire. I had no trouble with the Triumph but acceleration was better than braking. |
The V5 registration document finally showing the correct engine number after all of these yearsIt took a while to get to the bottom of, but at long last we have the V5 registration document showing the correct engine and chassis numbers as per the car and original purchase receipt. Many thanks Harry Liddell who passed on the correct documents as it made authentication so much easier. We have a matching numbers car and for all it has been through that is quite amazing. Below is a picture of me taken by Harry Liddell when we met up in July 2016 - thanks again Harry.
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